alternative to Cape Cutter

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alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby oak » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 pm

I am very happy with my CC19 but now into my eighties I am considering changing.I don't want to give up sailing but
The problem of climbing onto the cabin roof to go forward especially with a sail foul up in breezy weather.the impossibility of doing anything to the bowsprit has suggested to me that I need an open boat on one level.Mooring isn't so easy either,
I find the spars very heavy and want to change to carbon fibre.
I like the idea of self tacking sails.
Not a question of being disloyal to Cape Cutters but has any one any suggestions for an alternative.Stable,not overcanvassed,weight not a problem as I use a tractor to move the boat.
Any ideas
Oak
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby erbster » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:29 pm

I hope I’m still sailing in my eighties! My suggestion would be obedient crew...


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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby oak » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:40 pm

Charles,
good idea.My wife used to race with me but I think she got fed up with being shouted at.
I like sailing alone having of course carried out a Risk Assesment, checked with Health and Safety, reported to Garda[police].etc etc
I am more in tune with Charles Stock
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby chrisr » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:57 am

Sounds like you might need a Drascombe Lugger with carbon spars then?

How about an open Swallow Bay Raider? 17 or 20ft? Many have carbon spars, and self tacking jibs. Available in gunter and bermudan rigs.
However, the expedition version has similar fore deck access issues to those you seek to leave behind, due to the small cabin.

Or take a lesson from Swallow, and fit carbon spars to another craft?
Tubes are available, but still a little niche, and can be hard to find. Fit out requires a little specialist knowledge, but is not too difficult. Has anyone done this to a CCutter?
I successfully made a fly away jib pole (as seen on Enterprises, and a few Shrimpers) from a Carbon tube blank. This "automates" the goose wing for down wind, and improves performance on a reach, if you fancy it.

I have a BR exped (Bermudan, so no gaff/gunter spar) and easily and regularly erect the 24 ft carbon mast on my own. She also sails very well indeed, and goes upwind so much better than my DLugger.
I'm considering changing my wood boom to carbon too.
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby oak » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:54 pm

Thanks Chrisr
I know at least one owner has changed to a carbon mast on his CC19 but organizing that from the west of Ireland is beyond me.I believe he kept the gaff which is another item I would like to get rid off.
I am not a keen follower of the Drascombes I suppose since the fellow was drowned in Cork and the boat was criticized by the Marine Cas Invest.Board.
I followed up the the Swallow suggestion.
I also looked at the Norseman.
Because these boats are designed as Raiders so sail and row, are they a little skimpy in the beam?I don't think either of them would be as "comfortable" as the CC19.
I like the spars,self tacking,water ballast.
Have you sailed in a BR17.
The young lady doing a write up for Watercraft seemed a bit iffy.
What do you think of the construction?
Can you think of any other constructors?
America seems to offer lots of lovely alternatives but add in VAT and 25% Tariff and thats goodbye.
My CC19 Merlin gave me a very dirty look this morning
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby chrisr » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:19 pm

oak wrote:Thanks Chrisr
I know at least one owner has changed to a carbon mast on his CC19 but organizing that from the west of Ireland is beyond me.I believe he kept the gaff which is another item I would like to get rid off...
Carbon tube supply, especially fro mast, likely a major problem in W Ireland? Difficult to arrange transport.

I am not a keen follower of the Drascombes I suppose since the fellow was drowned in Cork and the boat was criticized by the Marine Cas Invest.Board...
Lugger. We had a nearly new Honnor Marine boat, which was very well made, but almost impossible to sail effectively in our very tidal ria. Reaching about looses its attractions after an hour or two! Lovely boat, but as a sometime dinghy racer, just not lively enough for me on my own.

I followed up the the Swallow suggestion.
I also looked at the Norseman.
Because these boats are designed as Raiders so sail and row, are they a little skimpy in the beam?I don't think either of them would be as "comfortable" as the CC19.
I'm fairly sure BR not as comfortable as CC. More light weight dinghy style construction, but quality of mine is excellent. Just have to adjust the mindset away from the lovely bronze fittings on the Lugger. I really don't miss the Luggers iron plate and rudder, both of which add little to upwind performance. Much better thought out aerofoil sections on BR.
Beam seems plenty enough for substantial form stability with tanks filled.
See the library article about water ballast on swallow assoc site.

I like the spars,self tacking,water ballast.
Water ballast highly effective, and we have been out in some very strong winds, when racing, two up, with no reef in, no worries at all. Two reefs are fitted. We don't row!
I don't often sail with ballast out, unless it's proper racing! Even then, boat performs better in heavy winds with ballast in.

The large cockpit seats up to six, we sail with 4 max. When sitting about, which we do a lot, four can stretch out with feet up, along the side seats.

Good locker storage.

Cabin very different from CC! Just a basic box to camp in...well mine is anyway! More of a floating shed in my case, all the beach stuff etc generally is carted about in there.
Porta potti and simple camp gas stove are all that i have.

Have you sailed in a BR17.
No, fewer of these about, didn't see any for sale, and none near me. Check on the Swallow forum. I think there may b one in S Ireland?
There are GRP and wood epoxy versions about.
I wanted GRP only, as boat spends summer on tidal swing mooring.
I have copperbot anti foul. Expensive, but highly recommended!


The young lady doing a write up for Watercraft seemed a bit iffy.
Will have to revisit that review! I generally moan that you never seem to see a negative review, of any boats!

What do you think of the construction?
Not as "finished" or athestetically beautiful as the Honnor Lugger. See above re racing dinghy...you have to compromise for performance gains, i guess?
Swallow is lighter built, as might be expected from a more sailing performance oriented craft.

Can you think of any other constructors?
Not that fit your criteria, sorry.

I chose BR over CC and Shrimper as I do little more than day sail and camp.
I can borrow a bigger boat if I want to stay over a few days with the wife. BR too basic for her.
The CC is a lovely boat, just not for us at the moment. There are several about near us in Cornwall.
The bigger cockpit for sunbathing, swimming etc off the BR sold it to Mrs. The sail performance for me.

America seems to offer lots of lovely alternatives but add in VAT and 25% Tariff and thats goodbye.
Never mind the exchange rates.... although perhaps better for euro than pounds?

My CC19 Merlin gave me a very dirty look this morning
Oak


Hope this helps?
BTW, I am sixty, and about to retire. A bit younger than yourself, but no young blood racer. Wife is quite timid on the water (originally a London girl!)
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby oak » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:24 pm

that is a very interesting post,very helpful.
There is a BR20 for sale in Ireland but the owner declined to sell to me as I only want to potter around and his boat was fine tuned for Raiding.!
One of the things I noticed is that Matt changes his design every month.Gunter out now,Bermudian rig in.New rudder this month,at least there is development
The 17 is only available in the fancy plywood which is quite an expensive option compared to the 20.
reading between your lines BRs seems quite basic aesthetically.
I used the wrong word about the Watercraft journalist.The article wasn't iffy but she seemed a little apprehensive sailing without the ballast.
I have looked at the Swallow forum and in particular the Boat Metrics.Good starting point.
One boat that I think would suit is the Chuck Paine Levant 15

https://www.chuckpaine.com/boats/paine-15-2/
I asked Paine if I could have the boat built here in Cedar and he nearly exploded.At least I think thats what happened.I wouldn't mind it in any wood.
Enjoy your retirement
Oak
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby chrisr » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:47 pm

I think I may know of the raid boat to which you refer! I think that chap knows his stuff, boat tech wise, if not sales!

Basic, is perhaps to strong a word. Mine with optiinal wood trims does look quite well, just not quite as "tiddly" as a well specd Lugger.
Different horses, I suppose, and I far prefer the BR.

Carbon tubes. Just remembered how I had to fetch my 30mm D x 2m L jib stick from the makers....never mind a mast!

Boat metrics. I think its important to remember that the BR, without water ballast very probably will not self right after capsize. However, not that sure that some other craft would self right, if the iron plates were not locked down.
I recall no provision to do this on Lugger centre plate, certainly not on iron rudder which had no downhaul either, just gravity.

Another advantage of BR, noted when passing one of my local CCs on it's mooring, is that outboard can tilt and trim clear of water. No need to hoist!

Hope you find the boat you need. Good to hear you're still sailing!
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby chrisr » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:08 pm

Had a look at the chuck paine boat....WOW!

But, at the end...
A LEVANT 15 for delivery in 2020 will cost between $85,000 and $105,000 depending upon the specification of hardwoods, fittings and options.

...and it can't live on my semi drying mooring....

But,
Until now, my unobtainable dream has been a hybrid Romilly...
http://www.romilly.nl/integrated-battery-assist.html

Perhaps another maybe boat to add to your list?
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Re: alternative to Cape Cutter

Postby oak » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:37 pm

I had looked at the Romilly ,I see a 2107 for sale at 20k euro but it just too big for me.
Or the Brendan

https://afloat.ie/boats-for-sale/sailin ... -daysailor
I saw a lovely Green Ocean boat for sale where the new owner ,having waited years for it,decided that it was all too much for him on his first trip .I think the boat even had electric propulsion.
Better not show you too many.
I have a bracket on which I can lift the engine just to clear the water with a grp plug fitting which closes off the aperture
The North quay Spitfire ,nice boat ,will self right after a capsize.very useful
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